Joerg Schmitz 0:08
Welcome to The Inclusive Leader Podcast. The practice of inclusive leadership enables us to tackle the complex challenges of our times. This is the space for conversations about inclusive leadership. I am your host, York Schmitz, and I welcome you to this episode. We live in challenging times. So figuring out how to transform our organizations and institutions to respond in adaptive ways, is a top priority. But that is easier said than done. long established assumptions and habits of mind and action, get in the way and derail even the best ambitions. This makes the work of Mark Samuel, as relevant as it is urgent, he challenges long held assumptions and habits, he connects behavior to strategy in an incredibly pragmatic and practical way. And he also has a long track record of getting transformation done. Most importantly, he does all of this with a great sense of humor, and a keen eye for what makes us essentially human. Here is my conversation with Mark. Okay, so Mark, what do you do?
Mark Samuel 1:30
Your thank you so much for having me on this. And, and let me just share to me what I do, can come down to one word, and it's called transformation. What I'm really about is how do we transform a business and a culture at the same time to change paradigms in such a way that it's good for the business and its growth? In a new world? If you would, as well as how do we modify the culture to support that business, because it's all about the people. Though far what we've seen, in most organizations, they separate culture from the business and they can't be separated, they have to be directly integrated in link. And up to this point, it's indirect at best, with a lot of missed assumptions. You know, for example, most organizational cultures are based on values. The problem with values is that a it's not connected to what people actually have to do to execute on their business goals and priorities. And people have different interpretations of values based on their fears, their needs for control, and even practical things like how do we get our work done. So as an example, you take the value of teamwork, and you apply that to the emergency department of a hospital, how teamwork works is completely different than the rehab department of that same hospital 100 feet down the hallway. Totally different. One requires complete cross functional consensus building for rehab and a treatment plan in emergency room if you take that time the patient dies. So how we translate words like integrity and teamwork, and all of that changes drastically just look at if you were to look at the polarization in the US today, as an example, I think you would find both parties who are completely polarized still thinking that they're representing integrity, that they're representing commitment, that they're representing the highest of their values. And yet, if we were a business, we'd be failing, you know, which is kind of what the US is doing right now, in terms of Congress, even our, you know, judicial, you know, Supreme Court is, is at its lowest ratings for that very same reason. So you cannot mobilize, you cannot think that culture is based on values that don't link to how are we going to actually behave? Not what's our philosophy of how we should be a PhD? And what does that look like in terms of our getting our work done, which is the only reality that we're eventually measured against.
Joerg Schmitz 4:40
That's why I love your work. And for me, the connection of what you just said to what I would call inclusive leadership is direct because it is the act of leaders that need to do that translation that needs needs to put values as a as an intention perhaps into proper context, right, and also live with the inconsistency and normalize the inconsistency and expression of values in their organization. And I think leaders, and I think that's what you said, In the beginning, oftentimes, leaders, they believe let's, let's put a value statement out there, let's put a nice poster together. And, you know, it's separated from the business, and we're doing doing culture, when we have these nice posters, and we talk about the values at every point, but we're not making those connections.
Mark Samuel 5:37
That's right, and, and to some degree, too, and I do like that values, or at least becoming more descriptive, and behavioral in their definition. So I do think we've made progress. The challenge with it is that it doesn't clarify, how do we respond when the going gets tough? So when, when I'm overwhelmed when I have competing priorities when our communication isn't working because of of location, and distance and time zones? How do we respond in those situations, I have no guidance based on the values, it's not an issue of respect, that I got communicating with you. It's an issue that it's two in the morning for you. And it's the middle of my day for me, and I can't really communicate with you or else you'll be upset. I'm not respecting you. So it's like, how do we work through all that, and it's the working through it. That's the actual culture. It's how we support each other during difficult times. It's how we include each other to get new thinking it's, which goes back to your inclusivity concept. It's, it's how do we make decisions, when there's no clear decision to be made? There's only a choice to be made that we have to learn from? And that's our new world today. That's the issue is that some of what the transformation is for organization is how do I, how do I lead when I don't have the answers? When I don't know the right way to do thing? Why do I lead now? And what does leadership look like in a world that we're constantly being thrown new variables that we didn't have before, that we have to lead through? Whether it's a COVID? Whether it's new technology, whether it's a new generation of people leaving because they don't want to work so hard? And they, you know, I'm just reading articles on that, what are they calling it the the silent, silent quitting? You know, and what people don't realize is that at the end of the day, it's our human evolution, that is really being challenged. It's not the culture of an organization, it's our human evolution within that culture, that's actually going to change the culture. How do I how do I raise consciousness is more important than how do I gain a skill to communicate better? It's, it's that raising of consciousness that allows me to have that respect that allows me to slow down that allows me to go out of control, knowing and trusting that the answer is just ahead of me. And I do I trust that we can put and put more emphasis on recovery, rather than perfection. Like these are all things that we have to start to embrace. If we're going to survive the level of disturbance that keeps coming our way within organizations. And the more we want to control and go back to the way things were, the more we're missing the point of what we need to do in the future.
Joerg Schmitz 8:56
Absolutely. And I think this is why just resonating with what you're saying. So first, I mean, your focus on transformation is needed now. Right? And, and therefore midtable forces, you know, against that, actually, even though companies talk about transformational leadership and whatnot, but what they're oftentimes afraid, they're afraid of the implications of what you just said, actually, if we don't know, the world as it's emerging, and we need to make sense out of it. But you know, we need to unlearn you know, things really quickly, because the past is not reliable anymore to this emerging future.
Mark Samuel 9:39
That's correct. And we can see it very blatantly in the debates and amount of time, both taken, and I would say even wasted on how do we return to office in the right way. Everybody, you know, and you've got the people that go, oh, and you even have these major things. Aren't leaders that I have great respect for, oh, we have to go back to the way it was where everyone's back in the office because the only way to create socialization, and then you have people that go, No, we don't need to be in the office at all, because it's inefficient and a waste of money to have buildings. And it's like, you're both trying to to provide an answer, that will be an evolutionary answer, and there is no right way to do it. And the good news is, there's no wrong way to do it. There's just the way that it's going to work. And the way that's not going to work. And that's going to evolve over time. And some people will be in the office, some people won't be. And quite honestly, this is why I think that instead of having organizational policy, let's have team policy based on what works for the teams, where the teams that have to connect with each other to produce results. And let's make an outcome driven instead a process driven so that we've seen, it's about getting the work done, if it works to get the work done to have hybrid one way or the other, then that's what should be calling the play, not what feels right, or what can we control or not control? This just ridiculous,
Joerg Schmitz 11:12
I think. So it makes the work of leadership harder, right? Because all of a sudden, I need to this I like this idea of working through, right that you mentioned, I need to now become an expert at working through stuff with people not doing predictable stuff to people. And then Then moving on right to the next speech I need to give or so this is this is actually working through stuff and you focus a lot and I seeing your work a lot. I know you focus a lot on recovery skills, maybe you can talk about that a little bit. How important that is.
Mark Samuel 11:51
Well, it all came from the origination of my work was actually all around accountability. And it's because that when I first started out, I just thought things would work. Because it was what I was taught to do. very naive, I admit it, you know, it's like, Hey, I had great professors in college, and they mentored me a super well. And I just expected that whatever they taught me since they're the experts, it was going to work.
Joerg Schmitz 12:23
Yeah, but they were only watching what works.
Mark Samuel 12:27
Exactly. So when I found it didn't work, I needed to discover why and see if there was a pattern. And and the pattern showed up, I did two years of study of different organizations, I had implemented change or leadership teamwork with and what have you. And the one thing that kept showing up, regardless of industry, regardless of level, was the lack of accountability is when things broke down, people made agreements, you know, committed to actions committed to behaviors. And then as soon as the session is over, we went back to our old ways. And it was a level of individual accountability. But I also discovered that it was more of a, there was no shared accountability for the things that everybody had to be involved in to achieve. So right there, I knew that that accountability was key, but it's going to have to be different than what we think of accountability. Because we think of accountability very individualistically. Keep your commitments do what you say you're going to do. And those are all nice. And that makes us feel good when people do that. And certainly when people don't do that we're going to have breakdowns. So I don't question that. But that is not really what accountability is about. You know, accountability is about creating an environment where we can all count on each other, for the actions, behaviors, inclusion conclusion, that's going to be necessary to achieve our common desired outcomes. And it's about really being clear about outcomes, and what we're trying to accomplish and how we're going to do that much more than do what you say you're going to do. Because you can say you're going to do something that doesn't achieve your outcome. So why am I holding you accountable for that? And quite honestly, the way that's translates into organizations, and it's my biggest complaint is that organizations are accountable for activity, not for results. They think they are because they're gonna go through all their measurements, but that those kinds of results are like, like a sports team saying, Oh, we're gonna win the championship. Yeah, that's not a result. Guys. That's not you can't hold someone accountable for that. That's a nice intention. And it's a great goal. But the real accountability is what are we committing to each other to accomplish being good enough to win that championship? Now we've got the accountability, but it's got to be An agreed upon accountability, nada, I'm telling you, you need to go do this, and then have no no understanding of what that means the context or who you're affecting by going to do that.
Joerg Schmitz 15:14
I can't tell you how I mean, I've been it makes perfect sense the way you describe it. And I see the trap that you're identifying, they're all over the place, you know, being accountable for activities. So it's a checklist exercise, ultimately. But what it actually means is I need to recalibrate if I see the need to recalibrate, because we're going off course, we're not hitting our what we want to achieve, that's being accountable, right. And it's also being accountable when I when I, for example, I see I won't be able to make this target because the assumptions have shifted and changed, right, the original assumptions about have shifted. So I'm accountable by bike by raising that, right, I'm not accountable by forcing something into place that so I can say, you know, check mark,
Mark Samuel 16:06
right. And it does speak to where is accountability breaking down at different levels. So at the highest level, the easiest thing to point to where accountability breaks down, setting priorities, we make everything a priority, or we set the priorities. And then as the world changes, or our business changes, we then add more priorities, but we never take anything off. So we're never accountable for giving people you know, what can be done, what can be achieved, that's most important, because now we're vulnerable to being wrong. So I'd rather just say everything's a priority. And then when you can achieve it, you're the one that's wrong. Yeah, exactly. It's a lose lose game. And and now we're getting the result of it, which is overwhelm burnout, people are leaving left and right, because people aren't willing to take it. The younger generation says, Why am I doing that? Right?
Joerg Schmitz 17:02
And this is, I mean, so in a way, it's good that there is this movement. Why? I mean, why am I taking that because it makes leaders all of a sudden have to rethink what kind of cultures are we actually building? And how does this culture of thing work in the first place? Maybe that's the silver lining to this
Mark Samuel 17:20
tells me. But the challenge is, is that there's really two things, we need an organization, we need managers that are really good at optimizing status quo. But we need leaders who are going to challenge the status quo to move us into the future. And too often, it's managers in leadership roles where you get stuck.
Joerg Schmitz 17:39
Oh, this is beautiful. Yes. Yeah. That's a great insight. I mean, I cannot I mean, I can't overemphasize how excited I am to bring your focus your expertise into this institute. And especially because I've seen your work with groups and, and leadership teams. And I mean, when you say you focus on transformation, you actually bring about transformation. I've seen it and it's powerful, and the techniques that you have, and the processes you have, and I and to me, like I said, inclusive leadership is all about making transformation work. Absolutely.
Mark Samuel 18:19
You know, because what transformation to have transformation requires two things. It's a mindset change, and a behavior change in association with the new mindset. If you have a mindset change, but don't change behavior, then you don't have transformation. You got new philosophy, new ideas, and it doesn't do anything. If you have new behaviors, but no new mindset, all you're doing is getting better at creating what you already existed. So it's really how do you help people to get outside themselves to a new paradigm of thinking, both in terms of what they want to accomplish, which is generally what we're what forces us to even think about it or want it because we want a different result than what we have now. But then, then the second part is how do we create team behaviors and group behaviors and what I'll call collective behaviors, rather than individual behaviors to get there, because now, it's like a double playing baseball. No single person can make a double play in baseball. I mean, generally speaking, there are exceptions to that. I don't want to get that technical to bore everybody. But in general, it requires a team to actually get the result of a double play recovery, which was your original question is because when we think of accountability, we have to not confuse accountability with perfection because the part that's gone wrong with accountabilities we've taken the humaneness out of it, and as human beings, we're going to make mistakes. We're going to drop the ball We're gonna make bad decisions, there's no way to avoid it. And we don't even want to avoid it. Because if you look at the true artists in the world, many of you know, like Picasso was, I think the one who coined it. He said, I've, I've created my best work from my mistake. And that's really what leadership is, and what what accountability is, it's not that you drop the ball. It's how do you react and respond to fix it? And what did you learn from it to grow? And it's a growing model and a learning model, not a Oh, you weren't accountable. So you get punished, which is the way we think of it. It's a ridiculous model, because then No, great star, Michael Jordan was a failure, because he wasn't accountable because he missed 2000 shots. You know, it's like, That's ridiculous, right? So the reason why we said proactive recovery is key. And I honestly, I learned it in sports and music and theater from my kids, is that they practice break down, so that when breakdown occurs, it's not a crisis and a new thing to deal with. It's an old thing that we've rehearsed. And it's just becomes the next step. You know, the brilliant thing I heard, I certainly wasn't smart enough to think of this. But a customer said this to one of my clients, he said, I never thought it was a breakdown. Because we include in recovery, you include the customer, you know, you talk about inclusive leadership, it's not inclusive leadership, just within your own company, it's inclusive to your suppliers. It's inclusive with your customer. So they created recovery plans with the customer. And the customer said we didn't see it, it's a breakdown for your organization. We just saw it as the next step. And it was like, Oh, of course, it's so brilliantly, like, dang, I wish I would have thought. Because that's really what it is, we're gonna act, we're gonna things are gonna happen, what's the next step, based on the result, to then get the better result? That's all it is, rather than, Oh, you blew it, you failed, let's find out whose fault it was, which is the normal course of action. What we discovered, which we didn't know is that when you have a proactive recovery, and it's cross functional, and it's with your customer, and all that, there actually is no blame game, there is only Oh, this showed up, what's our response, and you start to speed up the organization, organizations are always worried about what can't go fast enough? Well, that's only because you've got so many barriers in the way, the real approach to our work is removed the barriers, and now all of a sudden, we're able to accomplish projects in three quarters of the time that we planned it or half the time. And we've got case studies of this, and we're not brilliant at project management, what we're good at is remove the obstacles that get in the way of people being able to do what they do. And that should be the role of leadership.
Joerg Schmitz 23:03
It's brilliant. And I also really love the way you're challenging conventional wisdom, because it's, it needs to be challenged. So that's why I need to ask you, you know, why has that become your focus? What is it about this transformation and enabling these things that that compelled you to put your your energies there?
Mark Samuel 23:26
Yes. And really, it gets back to that original story. When I thought I was being successful, and it wasn't working, that's really hard on me, you know, it's like I, the only reason I went into business to begin with was do what I learned to do, and do it well enough that people can trust that. So when I found it wasn't working, then my theme was, if I can't figure out how it's going to work, I should quit the business. I know, it was a little bit of an immature in my 20s kind of comment, but to me, it was that way, you know, it's like I'm then I'm not good enough to do this work. So for me, it's always been about, if something doesn't work, let's find a way to make it work. But let's not just do it based on what people are reading in books are the most common thing. Let's like literally understand, what's the human factor in this, rather than expecting people to show up in an inhuman way to be perfect. And if you follow my process, yeah, but I don't have time to follow your process in my working world. You know, it's like, let's make it work. And then what I discovered is that what works in one decade didn't work in the next decade. Things change. What you know, trust was the biggest issue when I first started because people worked with each other for 30 years and built resentments Up over those 30 years. You know, people say, Oh, well, if you spend enough time with him, you'll build trust, yeah, or mistrust. And literally, I was running into teams that said, you know, you did this one thing. You broke a confidence 20 years ago, and I've never trusted you since then I go, how long ago was that? So that's what trust was then. But then that wasn't the big issue for people in the next decade, when you had so much restructuring, it was, I can't trust you, because I don't know you. You know, it total flip, which again, goes back to what the values mean, it means something completely different. To build trust means, you know, not carrying old baggage to one group, to another group, I don't have old baggage, I don't know you well enough to trust you. That's a whole different thing. We have to expand beyond our stereotypes of what those words mean. But in any case, to answer your question, it's been an evolution for me, because I've had to remove my own barriers and get over my limiting beliefs. And so it's been an evolution for me, but it's also been an evolution of the work I do, because I'm never pretending that my old systems going to work on the new situation. So I'm constantly evolving it. And all the only thing I want to make sure is that I don't evaluate my work based on my work with you. And the moment we're doing it, I evaluate my work with you, based six months later, when I'm expecting to see measurable results, that better your organization and create a culture that can support it that is not being, you know, burning out to get the result, that's just not an effective model. And that's what drives me. I just keep learning. You know, it's like, I didn't believe team building could be done virtually, I was totally against it, and, you know, majorly against it, then COVID happens, and I go, Okay, now it's a choice, do I go out of business or stay in business? If I'm gonna stay in business, I better figure this out. So I better get open minded. That's the challenge we all have in our businesses. How do we open up from those limiting beliefs that we've staked you know, die on the sword for that we have to read look, and that's what I help organizations do, because I had to do it myself. And that's part of what keeps me going on this.
Joerg Schmitz 27:19
But what I'm inspired by is also this reflective stance that you took right off simply saying book. I mean, recognizing this was a core belief of mine, that was limiting. Now there was a crisis, I better get open minded about it, I think that what you just said, was gold in from my perspective, because it means that we all have to have the courage to stand back a little bit, watch ourselves, and put some reflective light on this end, without feeling bad or guilty or whatnot, that we haven't been open minded or so because that brings us back to the nature of what it means to be human. Right? I mean, we are all we all make mistakes, we're all subjected to these things. That's
Mark Samuel 28:03
absolutely right. And that's why it's about human transformation and changing consciousness, to be able to see the world bigger than our limited scope, which is kind of where we always will be coming from. And I'm dealing with that with an organization right now one of the biggest challenges, and it's heartbreaking, honestly, it's heartbreaking for me, because the industry, I started in, that I've done the most work in the medical field met hospitals, and clinics and things of that nature. And I stayed away from them during COVID, I knew that they are just getting slammed, just slammed with patients, challenging situations, like why would you do a training during this time, you don't have time for training, you only have time to survive. So I've stayed away. But what I've learned by a client that called me that I, you know, did my behavioral work and mindset changes and did all these things to create cross functional accountability, which to me, the biggest Canceler to any organization is silos, which goes completely against the inclusivity that you talk about. So they became, you know, a magnet hospital from literally looking at having to be sold because they were, you know, not working well enough. They've now become one of the best magnet hospitals, best employer of the state, everything's going great. The problem was, they thought they got through the crisis of COVID, only to discover they're still in crisis. And they're overwhelmed because their nursing shortage is huge. And the cost of traveling nurses when your patients are Medicare, and you're operating on point five to 1.5 margin, which is an awful business to be in is a killer. So they said our leaders are just completely over Won't they call me back to say, what, what do we even do? And I said, Well, it's not going to be doing things different. It's not a mindset change, that's outer. I said, the only way to address this is interchange. How do we, how do we help people cope and support themselves and each other in such a new way that the way through is through our inner transformation? And I'm literally going there with a full program on changing belief systems, how do we become more forgiving? How do we instill more love and care for each other and kindness? When all we want to do is react? Because we're so tired and stress? How do I come to balance inside myself. And it's, it's I said, the way you're going to create your culture is actually an inner process. And one of learning of understanding how life evolved. Because in the challenge, we, at the end of the day, we either become more loving, or we destroy ourselves. And so how do we bring that, and it's a whole new approach, that is an experiment, I don't know that it's going to work these people, I know, it's not going to work. And let's kind of create an activity to do something different with the culture, that's not going to work, they're gonna go, No way, I got to get my job done and just survive. So now it's how do I help you survive in a way that doesn't make you feel all alone? And discouraged and hopeless? How do we bring that from within. And I think ultimately, that's the transformation that organizations will need to go through when they're brought to the brink of what's humanly possible, which is right now the healthcare field,
Joerg Schmitz 31:52
but it's also very courageous of you to put to step into a to a dynamic, right, and you bring your expertise to it, and you're, you know, but but there is no guarantee, right? I mean, and so that is, by the way, that's an example of the environment we're in to come back to where we started. But it's so much easier for people when they have their process, their content, their solutions, and they just tell people, and then we go off. But that's a very different way of working with, with an organization.
Mark Samuel 32:27
And it's a weird one, because they trust me to do something so bold, and so different, because of my previous success. But I'm not using my the methods and all of my previous success, because that would fail completely. In fact, that would be abuse of it, I actually look at what I did with him now would be abusive. And so now I look at it as Okay, the only thing I can trust is I know that ultimately, the game is always an inner game. You know, that's the one thing that's been true for me personally. And organizationally, if we don't change from the inside, we're not going to get the outer result we need. Because the way you relate to an issue is the issue. We always want to Yeah, we want to make the issue the problem and solve it. But the way you relate to it is the actual issue. That's how you get through something. And so I know that if this doesn't work, I'm gonna learn something in the process that will then create where the solution needs to be.
Joerg Schmitz 33:29
I love this. And I mean, this is so full. I mean, our conversation has been so full of practical things already. Right, I feel but I still ask this question always as we're getting to the end of our our conversation, but what would be one or two really practical insights that anybody who's listening could practice right away? My suspicion is that it has something to do with what you just talked about, namely, the insight, but you know, I'm just curious, what would you what would you recommend?
Mark Samuel 34:01
And it's funny, when you ask that question, what I'm going to share is something that I use with organizations to make major transformation to change both culture and the business. It's what I use with teams, but it's also what I've used. And I'm not called to do this very often, but to save a marriage. So I literally had a CEO that that said, Hey, I'm you know, we're looking at divorce, and your last step, can you help guide us and it's really the same thing, go? To me, the answer is get out of today. Think of what you want a year from now, two years from now, whatever that is, and if you're a business you think about, okay, where do we need to be as a business a year from now, that's different than what we are today. If we're going to thrive in the future. If it's an individual, where do I want to be, you know, a year from now or two years from now, and really get clear, not just on the IRS result of it. But get clear on what does it actually look like when you're already there? Put yourself in the future, to really get yourself out of your current paradigm and mindset, put yourself in the future and describe what is happening, that is going on, if you would, to whatever result you're getting at that time, what would have to be in place within your leadership team, if it's an organization, and what would be happening operationally, that doesn't happen today. And you really want to think of it, what would be going on, then that doesn't take place today. So you really focus on the do differently, and the new reality, as opposed to taking what you're doing now and making it better. So focus there, then the second part is, how do I need to show up differently in that environment? So what is it that I will need to have to look like and the way I set expectations, the way I trust people differently the way I include people differently the way I communicate differently the way I make decisions differently, if we're going to be in or not based on books that you read, and anything that's out there that's popular, just simply Logically, if we're doing those kinds of different results, making those kinds of headways? How am I showing up differently based on my role to support that to nurture it to encourage it? And what does that actually look like in terms of, let's say, my own habits. And if there's something that's in the way that I feel a sense of fear or need for control, that's not going to allow me to do that, or, you know, yes, but great, work on that as a third thing on how you can again, change the inner, the create the outer, so that you show up differently to create a different result. And you either if you're an organization, you got to do it as a team, if you're an individual, do it by yourself, I literally do this about every six to eight months, for myself. So I create what I call this picture of sick death. And the reason I don't just look at the old one, two reasons. One is when I look at the old one, then I go into judgment about all the things I didn't do. myself, because I'm very critical of myself. And second, because because things have changed already, in six to eight months, things are different, I've learned something. And it's amazing to go back and compare my newest, you know, picture of success with what I had a year ago and discover, you know what, some things are not as important as I thought they were. And some things are made way more important than I thought it was. And those are the things that we've got to track our own transformation. That's part of that reflection that you talked about. And it's like, yeah, but always know where you're going, always know what that direction is, and who you want to be different than you are now. Not because you're not good enough. Because it's just a different reality, and a different desire.
Joerg Schmitz 38:17
I can tell I love your practical approach, your challenging mind, your compassion, and putting humans at the center of your thinking. And most importantly, not making change an anomaly. Right? You're in a sensing, I mean, let's accept change. And therefore the way we do whatever we do, including culture, including all our, you know, ourselves the way we did, Let's all make this subject. Let's, let's do this on the basic premise that let's accept change and work with it. I love that actually. And I have a bit
Mark Samuel 38:58
high trust in people, especially collective intelligence, to solve problems, remove breakdowns create new realities, and we've seen it.
Joerg Schmitz 39:09
So Mark, thank you. I am excited to work with you as part of this institute. I couldn't be happier. And you know, I think it's very clear from this conversation, how much value there is for for anybody who is part of of this community. So more to come. But thank you for now. I am terribly excited about this.
Mark Samuel 39:33
Yeah. And me too, because inclusive leadership is such a great thing as the foundation for everything we just talked about. And so you having an institute for inclusive leadership to me, really, for those people that that are of, of like mindedness, this is what it's all about. Like this is going to be the place to take all of our thinking to the next level. Because just even the way you frame things in response to what I was sharing already gave me new language new thinking around it expanded my consciousness, which is why I always love working with you. That to me, is what an institute is about. How do we all expand beyond what we thought possible?
Joerg Schmitz 40:20
Thank you, Mark. More to come. Yes.
Mark Samuel 40:23
Thank you. You're
Joerg Schmitz 40:32
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