Joerg Schmitz 0:08
Welcome to The Inclusive Leader Podcast. The practice of inclusive leadership enables us to tackle the complex challenges of our times. This is the space for conversations about inclusive leadership. I am your host York Schmitz and I welcome you to this episode. Welcome to the first podcast of our second season. And right at the beginning, we're starting with a slightly different format. occasion. Occasionally, in these inclusive leader podcasts, we will feature a solution or a new program that we are developing at the inclusive leadership institute. This is one of those podcasts. Right at the beginning of our second season, we are launching MCI N, mastering clarity, impact and narrative. And it is a solution a program for anyone who is struggling with building the right leadership connection, and communication in global organizations. Those are oftentimes people who speak English non natively, sometimes also native speakers, of course, but who feel they can really connect or for whom communicating in leadership contexts, creates a lot of anxiety. And I could not be happier to work with two renowned experts in this area, Vince Varallo and Carmela of clarity, both experts in leadership communications particularly focused on cultural and linguistic aspects to our to leading in English. Without further ado, here is my conversation with them. Okay, so I am really excited about this conversation today. Because not only because this is the first podcast of this series of our second series, I should say, but it's it's also on a topic that is, is very dear to my heart and exciting because it's connected to a a learning program that we are we will be launching shortly. It's called MCI N, mastering clarity, impact and narrative. And I thought of just starting off our conversation today with just how this is connected to the whole idea of inclusive leadership and the issues that talent and HR organizations are facing, particularly in global companies. And that leaders depending on any leaders in an organization probably should be looking at. And inclusive leadership is all about rebalancing cultural power and navigating the space of unconscious bias that gets in the way of making good business decisions and people decisions. And there is one inequity that I have as a as an as a business anthropologist have noticed in global organizations frequently, that does not get sufficient attention, which is the people that are struggling with communicating confidently in English. And when I say English, I don't just mean the language. I also mean the cultural underpinnings that come with that, in companies where the power center, you know, is in somewhere in the English speaking world, you know, the United States, Australia, the UK, Canada, and other places where English is the dominant language. And people just assume that English language capabilities are the norm in the world. And that certainly when we evaluate talent, and when we look at the model of leadership in organizations that is associated with English, and oftentimes I've seen people like myself, in a sense as non native speakers struggle in systems that embed some cultural assumptions somewhere, you know, in the where language and culture get connected and Leadership Profiles and leadership attributes get conflated, and they are so much part of how talent gets evaluated. Now I have to add this one before we dive into our conversation. I just have to add this one thought that because organizations can actually today map the biases in their systems and are rather educated about these biases. I have rarely seen an organization look at their international pro professionals or people that are non native speakers of English and apply that lens of unconscious bias. And yet when you talk to that population, you know that their accent, cultural assumptions that they are making struggling with idiomatic expression, sometimes all can stand in the way of them being recognized. So I couldn't be happier to have this conversation with Vince and Carmela today, and particularly also, because we three are the faculty to MCI n. And we're kind of preparing to launch this in the market more broadly. And to me, that's, that's absolutely exciting. So So Thanks for having this little conversation with me today. Vincent vermelha.
Vince Varallo 5:45
Happy to be here. Your Thank you.
Carmela O’Flaherty 5:48
Same here yard.
Joerg Schmitz 5:49
So with I mean, this just just obviously prompts this this question, when, when we're looking at what we're what we will be doing together shortly? What are you looking forward to in this inaugural MCI N program? Because I know that we come at this topic with different lenses, different experiences. But Vince, let's start with you. I mean, what are you looking forward to this, this is your baby in so many, many ways.
Vince Varallo 6:16
Thanks, your again, and thanks for that introduction. I, you know, I'm I always look forward to meeting the participants. And I would say that the joy of my career is watching these professionals who have accomplished a great deal in their careers. Watch them embrace the three layers of learning that we're talking about. Because while they're actually advancing in their career, at the moment, they hit a wall, and everything stops. And it's usually centered around English, working inside kind of cultural, diverse situations. And there's this moment in time where they just actually stop their progress. And it's amazing to watch because they're very highly professional, highly educated people. But this creates that wall. And for me, the great joy is to watch them, embrace the idea that their learning plan can be centered around three distinct areas. My particular favorite is the impact piece to speak with impact. And one of the reasons is that we focus heavily on what it means to be a really good public speaker. And for those people working in English, across cultures, this can really be a major challenge for them. And I would say it's a level of anxiety, sometimes fear. But the idea is that they just received feedback in their careers, where they should slow down, speak in public, and be understood. And I often think of that, and in this program, we talk about it when's the last time you actually saw a leader? Just slow down for the purpose of being understood. And what's missing in that feedback is the idea of connection and engagement. And so that focus on developing an impact I will share with you the international professionals gravitate towards that once because it's very rarely talked about and managed in any of the programs that they've taken. Now, having said that, clarity is also a major part. So I'm going to turn it over to Carmelo for for that.
Carmela O’Flaherty 8:46
Thank you, Vince and totally, totally agree with you impact is exactly what the international professionals want to have in those organizations. And I think you really hit the nail on the head when you said there's possibly a little fear and I think that in terms of clarity, I would say this is probably that the biggest challenge is the worry. What What would they sell like, what would I look like? What would they think about me? Do I sound smart? Will Will I have my credibility damaged by not by not addressing it a certain way or not using the correct vocabulary? And oh my I don't I don't have that verbal gymnastics, that linguistics gymnastics that I'm supposed to impress. And really the whole idea is not to impress, but to express and and I think the whole idea of goo is standing in the way of my communication, and really for international professionals. For the most part, it's, it's we're the ones that create that stumbling block. We're the ones that have that narrative in our mind. And that narrative is making us repeat information, or mumble or go really fast. So that will maybe they're not going to notice. I'm just gonna say it really quickly and get at. So the question is, what is clarity? Is it accent? Is it your pronunciation? Is it volume? Is it your intonation? What is it? And my whole idea of clarity is, can I see through that glass, and it doesn't matter if it is clear, or, or it has, if it's pink, but if I can see through it, if I can convey my message, my intended message to my audience, and thus create change, and thus create the impact, then my speech is clear. We're not shying away from addressing real challenges. Let's let's put it to the test. Is, is your pronunciation standing in the way? Great? Do you think it's standing in a way? Or is it really, and if it is, let's address it. Let's work on your pronunciation. Let's create Stuart groups, let's address a certain sound. But if it's not, and it's just your non native accent, kudos to you beautiful, you just added color, you just added another dimension, you just added beauty to your conversation, and people are looking forward to that. So I think it's it's, it's, it's our narrative, and putting our worries to the test.
Joerg Schmitz 11:51
I love that. And you know, it's that's the wall you talked about, right? I mean, and, and Carmela, as you were talking, I was just, you know, recalling my first presentation that I needed to give in English in a professional setting. And I was mortified. And, and you know, I mean, also because culturally, and this is how culture and those kinds of things. Obviously connect, I grew up, I grew up in an environment where you didn't train giving presentations, right? I mean, you know, I, the first presentation I ever had to give in German was when I was 1819 years old, at the end of my school career where I had to defend kind of a paper that I have to submit. And that was in German. And it was anxiety producing now doing it in English. And then in your soul, right, the first hurdle to take is the story we've created for ourselves and within ourselves. And that we, that holds us back. And that's what I love about the, your comment as well, the clarity piece that and I think that's that's what we are collectively doing by taking this wall, this this, that seems so amorphous, and people, you know, beat them beat their heads against it all the time. We're simplifying it a little bit, we're showing people a path through that. And I think the path on clarity is exactly what you said people need to get, get the message actually, that their accent, and whatever their version of English is that they're bringing is actually enrichment, right? It's not a fault, it's not a flaw, it's not something you should feel bad about that you have to compensate, because you want to speak like those native speakers of any native variety. Right? The other piece, though, is also that I do need good feedback, right? Yes, this may be my the color that I'm bringing, but that doesn't mean that I, I don't, don't need to look at how I'm producing sounds for example, or this speeding up hoping that nobody will notice, you know, or, or those kinds of things I need, I need somebody to tell me the truth. I need that honest feedback. And then maybe a little tip and this this was incredibly helpful for me and my pronunciation because I remember those days, like, like yesterday, where somebody just gave gave me a little tip. If you pronounce it, this syllable or this, this this in my case, it was the W right, the blah, blah, blah, if you just pronounced that a little differently that makes all the difference. And you know, so you do need to get that feedback and and everybody was considering this program will get this type of feedback, you know, in this MCI and solution, the part that for winding now a little bit in this that I'm looking forward to is to really give people Have a case, this simplified pathway and watching them letting go of some of those anxieties. Because ultimately, and this is where my lens on this comes from the leadership development area where I spend a lot of my time. Leadership is all is not about the leader, right? It's not about us, it is about the people that are looking to us for leadership, right? To engage them, motivate them, direct them, align them, excite them, motivate them towards a shared goal, sorts, and that doesn't happen when we are too preoccupied with ourselves. So if I'm standing here, boring, managing my anxiety, and dreading the next moment that I have to, you know, appear in public or in front of people, or in a team meeting, where I feel singled out, or I'm the only one with an accent, that is non native, everybody has an accent, by the way, then, then then that that gets in my way of, of, of unlocking the talent that I have. And if I'm blocking that talent, then it certainly can be picked up or recognized by my organization. So that's what I'm getting passionate about, of helping helping individuals unlock the way they can lead in global organizations. But also, therefore, reducing that bias that that sits right in many talent and leadership pipelines. And then the same people that don't recognize that bias are also bemoaning that we can find the right talent and the right talent is working right in the organization right under their noses. It just sounds differently, and they're struggling with different things,
Vince Varallo 16:51
you know, apart a part of that, I think is also the idea that the clarity Carmela that you talked about. I do think that's an inward journey. I think that's a self discovery moment. And your follow up what you said, I think also the new era that we are in, just because you have specific sound production problems does not need you do reduce your accent. That's why but the the impact piece that you're talking about, I just want to take a moment because the liberating concept for anyone who really is working in terms of presentation, facilitation, meeting management, anyone, you know of those times, it's really no longer about you the individual. It's about what the audience needs from you. And that in itself, is liberating. Because you can No, you no longer have to be so self conscious about how you sound and about how you'll deliver the restructure. It's easy to say, by the way, not necessarily easy to do. But the refocus is on what do they need from me. And let me create those packages. And that, you know, in addition to impact, I believe that leads to the narrative piece as well.
Carmela O’Flaherty 18:14
Yeah. And Vincent, if I may just quickly piggyback on what you said, is shifting the focus from what it is that I have to say to them to what it is that they need to hear from me. And that focus is exactly what you said it's liberating. It's no longer focusing. And that's also what creates the engagement. That's what creates the connection with the audience. And that's what moves the audience to action, which is ultimately, the goal is not just for me to regurgitate information, but that information has to have some kind of impact, and a follow up. So absolutely agree with you.
Vince Varallo 18:55
And also one of the thing you're that you mentioned about feedback. And most of the most times in the skill development courses, the focus, and rightfully so is on the challenges that we need to overcome. What we really encourage an MC aim is to understand what you're already good at, and go get better at it and put a lens on that development and turn those strengths into greater strengths. And what happens is Yes, I believe we should learn from our mistakes. That's great. But the idea of learning about what we're good at and getting better at it is often misunderstood. And that's really what I'm also excited about in terms of working with our participants.
Carmela O’Flaherty 19:46
And it helps our narrative it helps us rewrite that narrative, that negative narrative that we may have, because we we are different, we feel different where we're treated perhaps in a Different way you were talking about the unconscious bias. So how do we rewrite that narrative by going through these trends and saying, oh, you know what, yeah, I do have so much to offer, I am good at this. So how do I package it? How do I create that packaging that moves away from me, it actually moves my
Joerg Schmitz 20:20
audience. And, you know, there was narrative written all over this, right? So we need to understand our own narrative that keeps us stuck. And also the narrative that that has limited, perhaps our brand, you know, in a, in a, in a, in an organization, potentially our reputation. And, and we need to rewrite that that's true. And then from from, and then we add one additional elements to that narrative, namely, leadership, in a certain sense, is creating a shared narrative. And, you know, we sometimes say the clarity is about us, right? And then that's, that's the part we can perhaps need to look at and control. The impact is about others them, it's about who they are in Connect, can I resonate? can I connect, create that connection? Can I deepen that connection? And then, like you said, Carmella, the third level is about moving them the art and science of leadership. And that is, then how do I develop a shared narrative? Based on that understanding what I come to embody and who I am in this, can I now create, deepen that resonance and that connection, to move us collectively, through a shared narrative. And that shared narrative has all kinds of cultural underpinnings. And this is where you know that that's something that advertising has masterfully understood, right? How different products and services are marketed around the world around, because their cultural nuances in how, what connects us what deeply moves us. And that's when that cultural piece comes in, where we need to understand the stories of others. Right? And, and that sits right in our accidents, right? And how we articulate and communicate ourselves. And how can we now stitch that together in a way that connects us to this to a higher level of narrative, that is the story of us in a certain sense of who we are, and what we can accomplish. And that to me, if we if we neglected that in this learning, we are not taking this notion to the level that it could be taking, but really uncovering people's leadership potential. Very powerful. So anyway, this is why we're doing this. Because we're all passionate, and we're bringing different lenses to this and different our own stories as well our own narratives. But maybe we should talk a little bit about the ideal participant because we also created this with participants in mind. Right. And, and I think we've struggled with this actually of defining who is this for, you know, this, obviously, is not for the beginning, English language students or for So, but But how would I mean, I don't know, Camilla, Vince, how would you describe the ideal participant?
Vince Varallo 23:29
First of all, the this the terms native and non native speakers are bandied about quite a bit. And I will share with you that we work with also native speakers who come from countries in, you know, all over the world, and who interacting with other native speakers, creates challenges. So I would say certainly the definition of professionals, you know, what I'm also excited about is that this is our first public workshop, I've spent my entire career working inside corporations and delivering it. So in this program, we're going to get scientists, we're going to get accountants, we're going to get engineers, IT specialists, those people who were there, you know, inside organizations, and Carmela and I, you and I spoke about this a little bit, sometimes feel as if they're almost in hiding inside of an organization and reluctant to speak up in certain situations. And usually the the, the idea is group situations really can confound the problem. So I would say the ideal participant or those people who are working in English every day, across kind of culturally diverse environments and find themselves needing to have leadership communication skills in English that have been Not necessarily eluded them, but have kind of cut off their progress in their career. So I really, you know, and by the way I will share with you, we work with senior levels, executives and managers on a regular basis. And the, the, the last thing I'll share with you about the ideal participant is that not everybody sees the lack of confidence in these individuals, it's very well hidden, and very well tucked away. And working with a C suite executive from Asia, this gentleman shared with me that his lack of confidence when it comes to delivering speeches at the board meetings is debilitating is the word that he used. No one knows it. No one sees it, but he himself feels it. And so I think that is also a part of what we're doing and helping the participants overcome these confidence challenges. Carmela will turn it over to you.
Carmela O’Flaherty 26:10
Yeah, Vince, I totally agree with you with that debilitating, and some can put that mask of I'm just fine. And create those workarounds. While inside there is a storm going on. So I think the whole idea is to quiet down that storm, because quieting that storm quieting that survival, automated survival instincts that really debilitate the part of the brain that is most creative, the part of the brain that uses the language, innovative collaborative, gets shut, gets shut down. So I think our job and our mission and our wish is to open it up to quiet that storm. So you can see wider so that you can be more receptive, and also be comfortable giving what it is that is hidden inside.
Vince Varallo 27:06
And if I could tie this back to the feedback that we were talking about earlier, another example of working with a Chinese woman, a manager inside of an organization, in a in a coaching environment, where she expressed this kind of lack of confidence that she has, especially when she has to share at meetings or whatever. And she gave a presentation and I was able to actually observe her presentation. And at the end of it, I gave her feedback that said, you have a certain credibility about you that will carry with you in your career. And she stopped. And she said, No one's ever told me that before. And there was this wonderful silence that followed. And you know, I don't use the expression the light bulb goes on, because the people we work with the light bulb is already on a chance to shine a little bit brighter. And I know Carmela and yardie resonate with this, because that is the reason I do what I do in my career for those moments. And I knew that that was life changing.
Joerg Schmitz 28:20
That light bulb was connected to a dimmer switch.
Carmela O’Flaherty 28:27
Yeah, so we want to turn it all the way up.
Joerg Schmitz 28:31
But you know, I would look at it this way. Because I also believe that native speakers belong into the category of people who can benefit from this. First of all, because native speakers are not exempt from any of the these issues. And they oftentimes, especially in global companies assume just because our company language, maybe English, therefore, it's my version of English and how I express myself at home or naturally, that will make me effective and successful. And I've talked to many of those individuals who say, Ah, I'm so glad I'm working in a company where my mother tongue is the corporate language because I don't have to think about it. Yes. And my response is always no, you shouldn't need to think because you are communicating your effectiveness relies on how well you communicate with people who struggle with English as a not as an not from a non Native perspective. And to me, there's there are two qualifiers for people in this program. One is either you experience what we talked about earlier, that deep internal anxiety, you know, I mean, and and that, I mean, if if, if communicating in English creates anxiety in In the past, particularly in a group setting, setting, like you said, Vince, then this program can offer some. But also, let's say, absent that anxiety is you if you feel that you're communicating, and you're not getting the resonance you're looking for, you sometimes walk out and you feel like I'm not sure that I really connected here, that's another signal that this program can be valuable for you so, so I look at it, if your experiences either that have anxiety, and the perpetual feeling, you're not able to connect at the level that you want to connect, I think that qualifies people for for for this program. And I would add, then, of course, there is the third classification, which is when you experience both. And that becomes then this amplify amplifying effect. But that's at least how I would answer that question, who's the ideal participant.
Carmela O’Flaherty 31:01
And York, I totally agree with you because it creates a vicious cycle, and we emit energy. And that energy is contagious, we're either going to have that energy of motivation positivity, or we're going to have that energy that is going to just suck everybody's energy down and bring them down. And I totally agree with you about the native, what we consider to be the native speaker and that assumption of, oh, because I speak the language, I'm going to communicate well, absolutely is not there. So I think this program is going to create that sense of authenticity, who are you really authentically a sense of empathy? What do I need? What do I need to take and give and take, understanding the other side what and understanding their needs? And that creating that curiosity, of finding out more about who am I communicating with? I think it's just building that relationship with yourself and others that are understanding and that can connect back to the whole leadership concept, creating better leaders?
Joerg Schmitz 32:16
Absolutely. So maybe we should talk a little bit about what participants gets. So this is obviously a learning journey of science, right, a program where that is not just a presentation or so. But it's actually a fairly structured way of working people through what, through some really important steps. And so, Vince Carmela What do you want to just just share a little bit what people are getting in this program? how it's built? Sure, sure.
Vince Varallo 32:51
And you know, yesterday in our meeting, Carmela, we wanted to mention to these, these are not webinars, they're workshops, and come prepared to participate. As we said, so here's here's very specifically, there will be three, to our workshops, speak with clarity, speak with impact, develop your compelling narrative, they'll be spread out, you know, and we'll, we'll provide the dates, but they'll be spread out across a six week timeframe. We've added another session, to it an interactive q&a, where participants will have a chance to ask questions of all of us, and really kind of hone in on their specific learning plans and questions like what do I need to do to overcome that, that perhaps wasn't addressed during the three workshops, really thrilled that we're adding the MCI in online program, as an added resource, there are 32 lessons, audio recorded across seven different modules. And the total program for each module is about five, seven minutes late, skip lessons about five, seven minutes long, two and a half hours. And that then is an added bonus to the program. And we'll guide people on what is inside that program and how to take it. But they can do it in a self paced, leisurely kind of a way. We'll also have a workbook with exercises in it that people can actually take away and practice the exercises. So that's the very specific hands on when you drop it in here at the table, types of things that that we'll see.
Carmela O’Flaherty 34:35
Yeah, and I think what I'm very excited about in the program is that we actually are there to provide that valuable feedback. We're making sure that there aren't too many people within one group. So in a way, it's that individualized attention. It's seeing other people in the same boat. You're not alone that feeling I'm not alone. There are other Is that going through the same thing? And uncovering those golden strengths? And covering whatever is holding you back those stumbling blocks that we're hoping to, to shift from stumbling block to a stepping stone? How do I use that? To move up? Oh, wow, this is an asset, no, I'm
Vince Varallo 35:23
gonna steal that from you.
Carmela O’Flaherty 35:26
It is an asset, it's not a liability.
Joerg Schmitz 35:29
And what I'm also I mean, some people. And, you know, there will always be people who won't be able to attend every session live, right? Because and, and there's great value in doing this live and in a cohort for sure. But I think one feature that I want to also highlight is that we are going to record these sessions, and they will become available for the people that participants, you know, at their own at their own time, essentially. So you can either work through lessons, again, you know that because you found them valuable, or they were elements that you want to uncover deeper, or if you missed a session, you can certainly participate in that way. So, so participation is not only limited to the time, the live sessions, but the recordings make it possible to still participate and get the most value out of this. So I think, you know, I mean, I was wondering how we should, I mean, one of the reasons why I thought this, this program in particular is so valuable, because it is unique. You know, I mean, most most people that we are targeting not the native speakers, by the way, but non native speakers of English in global companies, when there is an issue that people pick up around accent or language, they usually get sent to language programs. And I think that's been our collective experience that not only does it not help, but sometimes it also sends a very frustrating message that that, you know, it's kind of like I'm remedial, I need to go back to some basics. And if somehow, and those programs don't necessarily deliver, because they're not necessarily focused on on that intersect, I call it that intersection between English and culture and leadership that people are struggling with. And so from my perspective, that's what makes this program actually unique offering that we are actually focusing, we're not shying away from that complicated intersection with kind of addressing it head on.
Vince Varallo 37:47
Yeah, and you know, I'm a former language school owner. So you know, I am a big believer in language school programs. But the problem for the folks that we're working with is they've hit a language level already, that is up near the fluency range. And so that's very specified type learning. And it really stand alone language programs are just not enough. So I really look at this as a leadership communication program, that allows people to kind of enhance their careers, and their career perspectives, and the number of people that we get in that, you know, year after year that they're there, you know, feedback sessions with their manager, say get better at communication, get better at communication, and then are thrown programs that don't help them is we're thrilled to be able to step in to that space right now. And help that level of individual inside the organization. And as you mentioned at the onset, your the organizational benefits are huge, you know, in uncovering leaders who are right there right in front of you. And it's exciting.
Carmela O’Flaherty 39:11
Absolutely. And York, I think, another difference and another uniqueness is when people are sent to language schools, it's kind of their being kind of shipped out to an outside source, whereas we are bringing that program into their realm into their leadership life and incorporating it and journey with them through that leadership communication journey. So I think that's we're partnering with them rather than being shipped and teaching.
Joerg Schmitz 39:46
Yeah, I think that's a huge value right in terms of just not having a partner you know, for the for the participant feeling that they have a partner in their success, and that we They're doing it within their context. I mean, that's and to me, that's, that's always been. So the differentiator in a sense, you know, having that context sensitivity for people, because not everybody struggles with the same thing either, right, they may struggle with the same with their worry and their lack of confidence, but that the sources of that lack of confidence, the narrative, the story we tell, are very different. Right? So it makes it real. Yeah. Makes pertinent. Exactly. Great. So thank you for for just just, you know, covering this and obviously sharing it with our audiences as well. Hopefully, some will consider participating or perhaps recommending this program to others if they know, I just can't help but but but just just summarize a few things that I thought were brilliant did. And please do the same kind of as we are reflecting on what we're taking away. I loved your Carmela two things that you said. Forget about impressing but expressing, right. I mean, that whole idea of and I think that stands in, that goes back to that internal narrative we have, what our voice is based on, are we trying to impress or express and I think this concern with impressing, you know, is is gets in the way significantly. And that's not I mean, that's not uncommon, particularly in cultures that don't have a high degree of psychological safety. And to me, that's where the link again to the idea of inclusive leadership, because inclusive leaders understand and are very intent on, on developing psychological safety for others, on their teams in their organizations. And, and so, so that resonated really with me, Vince, your differentiation of focusing in group on group and group situations in teams and so forth, what people are struggling with, and the especially that impact piece of focusing on the others. Right, and, and that, to me, was really important. And then again, I think we always inherited with the Sterling stumbling blocks into stepping stones. I love that because I think that's precisely what this program does. So thank you for that little tour.
Vince Varallo 42:25
Thanks for having us and excited to see the participants in the program as as we get closer,
Joerg Schmitz 42:32
right, that will give you information on how people can sign up and where they can get get that information.
Carmela O’Flaherty 42:38
Very exciting. Very exciting. Thank you, York. Thank you, York.
Joerg Schmitz 42:43
Thank you for joining us for this first podcast of our second season. It's really exciting to share some of the successes that we have built at the inclusive leadership institute. I hope you'll join our excitement, and also consider and cin for yourself, or perhaps for anyone that you know. Thank you
Thank you for listening. You can sign up for more wherever you get your podcasts just look for The Inclusive Leader Podcast. To find out more about the inclusive leadership institute. Visit us at www the inclusive leadership institute.com